Posted by hated contributor on February 09, 2000 at 05:58:25 AM EST:
In Reply to: Yet more answers (better format) posted by Hate Company on February 08, 2000 at 09:54:04 PM EST:
: This primary cause is of course a human cause, not a natural cause (Big Bang) or a supernatural cause (God). We're talking about the essence of humanity here.
: The question here is : what makes us humans? It is obvious that every other cause is an effect of this primary cause, God and the Big Bang included.
I believe, and have yet to see something to contradict with this belief, that this primary cause is communication.
In particular, God is a result of a special type of alienation of communication (religion), and the Big Bang could only come to consciousness (and therefore existence), through a special type of organization of communication (science).
Neither god not Bing Bang existed before humanity
: I would say that communication doen't "come" from somewhere. It is already there at the beginning, with the first humans. If you like, it could have originated from natural selection. It is what differenciates us from a pig or a journalist.
: However, this communication has to undertake a dialectical process through history, or pre-history if you wish, in order to come to full being.
Wrong, the end could be explained easily by the end of communication. The universe vanishes when humanity does
/// OT : Comment pouvez-vous en même temps soutenir qu'elle n'a pas de fin ? L'humanité serait elle infinie
: It is the other way around: humanity depends entirely on communication. Without communcation there can be no humanity (an H-bomb is a good example of absence (interruption ) of communication that could put an end to humanity).
: On the other hand, a good's thought depends on the of human thought.!!!
: In this case it is the good that thinks. The humans slaves lack thought. Hence they are things. One (myself included) is not a thing in as much as he thinks. Of course this thought remains formalistic (i.e non practical) under the present conditions.
/// OT : (one of their very sincere question ) la question était et est : est-ce qu'il est enviable d'être riche ? Est-ce que vous avez intérêt à devenir riche, au sens que vous nous direz, dans cette société ? Si oui, pourquoi ? Si non, pourquoi
: Well, it would certainly be better than being poor. Only an intellectual left (french?) hypocrite would find it worst to be rich than slave. But, I prefer true richness, qualitative richness, which is not to be found in this world. A matter of taste, perhaps?
: Or, maybe, a mater of human substance, a matter of life and death.
/// OT (they are really sincere here, again) La richesse, c'est l'aliénation. Produire de l'aliénation, voilà ce qui distingue la richesse de la pauvreté.
// OT : Peut on penser sans esprit?
: Of course: one can easily think without spirit. Take Sartre for example or the billions of slaves. To be more precize: money is the absence of spirit.
/// OT (I agree with this sentence) Vous n'avez toujours pas répondu ce qu'est la communication libre. /// La Commune de Paris a été (selon OT) une bonne petite dose d'aliénation. Il n'y a qu'à voir son mythe
: Alienation is just a special form of objectification.
: Anyway, I believe that economy is a religion (in accordance with young Voyer).
/// OT (at last a direct explanation ) Pour nous, quelqu'un qui construit sa petite théorie conservatrice sur l'infini, ou sur quelque chose
qui nous dépasse dans tous les sens du terme, irrémédiablement, et où on ne peut rien y changer puisque c'est un donné, est un "checkable asshole", ainsi que ceux qui le soutiennent
: But infinite is not that which has no limit, it is which its only limit is itself, it is which embraces everything. It is, in a word, communication. Something "infinitely expanding" has limits at any given time, but it doesn't stop being infinite for the reason it has limits at a given time
: Well, I take it back. You don't seem to have a carreer. This O.T thing is more of a hobby, you know, like surfing or weekend rioting.
__________
rough contribution of hated and naive contributor.
If you accept that humans communication capability comes from "evolution", you cannot say that the primal cause of humanity is its communication capability.
It is my belief that the primal cause is "groping about" and the not explainable strenght that pushes every "molecules bags" to grope about.
If you accept this hypothesis you have to admit that humanity as a whole is a groping collection of molecules, and that groping is also built in human communication.
the most important thing in groping is "imperfection". Only when perfect stable collection of molecules will exist, groping will stop.
the second aspect of groping is that entities have just to be stable enough to exists, they don't have to be perfect or finished...
they start groping as soon as they exist. If their imperfection is too bad, they will just disapear.
humanity is imperfect but it is energetically groping about... really groping, communication included.
consequently, communication will never be free (perfect)... because it will keep groping as soon as it is has jumped inside more complex entities.
We can just think about how to improve communication efficiency to accelerate "smarter" groping.
Tipically, revolutions can be beautiful improvments of human communication efficiency.
La commune was a "lost" revolution but a succesful revolution in that respect.
For me, it is not the qualities of the insurgents, or their moral superiority, but their energic groping in a direction that was not easy for other to follow, but proved prolific/fruitful/fecund ... for humanity, masters and rich included because they "understood" things on which they had groped helplessly for a long time.
www.2100.org thinks that it is going to happen again, now that world population explosion (like in Europe in the 1870s) is reaching a plateau. Nobody can address a problem when it seems unsolvable.
Then, for me, what is at stakes for the coming 20 years, is the quality and quantum of improvment that will be reached by the groping humanity.
I do think that we have to think about current alienations which could be alleviated.
the advantage of humans is that they have the capability to grope about in their heads before trying which way to grope about in the real world.